Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Faction identity has been a dead horse the moment void elves were introduced anyway:



So just give me the fcking Alleria skin tone.

Noooo, but you can CLeaRlY SeE!!! they have different colored EaaarSS!?!??!

Now do it with a DK tho XD; for real, you put a VE and a BE DK next to each other and they might as well be the same race with different customization choices bhaha.

"but faction identity" the moment they made Ve's a cheap color swap that was not an issue.

[Frenchvince]

Good on him and over 500~ likes already. "High Elf supporters only have 100 at most I'd bet" oh I'll never forget those laughable comments.

If "headliners" from the WOW community support the request of the High Elves, the message will be even stronger.

[Obelisk Kai]

So basically, one only needs to take the evidence we have super literally when it supports your agenda, otherwise it can be ignored? Regardless of what you think, he acknowledged that difference as being a thing, so for you to claim as if fact that there is no difference in regards to THE VERY THING was stated to be different is more than a bit sanctimonious (especially since his words are over-literal law in any other case where it suits you).

Given that the same people currently celebrating what Ion said spent months trying to ignore what he said in 2018, or calling him an idiot, the sheer level of hypocrisy on display at the moment is illuminating.

As for the line regarding a different relationship with magic and the sunwell, that one was quite vague and open to interpretation. After all, one valid interpretation is that the different relationship with magic refers to the philosophical split over how to deal with their addiction and the loss of the sunwell which precipitated the schism.

Supplementary evidence is as follows to confirm this interpretation.

Blood and honor confirms the Sunwell has no limits. You don't need to visit it, it simply is. So long as it exists it's radiance transcends time, space and even reality to sustain all thalassian elves.

In the Shadow of the Sun confirmed high elven exiles can still feel the Sunwell, and they can feel it's difference. This was from an exile priestess who admitted she could feel it upon it's restoration but who only learned the fact of it's restoration upon Kael'thas confirming it had happened.

Cataclysm showed both Blood Elves and exiles visiting the Sunwell in pilgrimage.

All canonical sources emphasising that high elves and Blood Elves share the same connection to the sunwell, fully consistent with what Ion said.

The only thalassian elves who probably are cut off from the Sunwell are the Void Elves, given that, canonically, mixing a light based energy sourced with a void based physiology would probably lead to spectacularly bad results. Void Elves likely sate their addiction through a direct connection to the void.

Why wouldn't the manga be canon? Afaik only the Warcraft RPG has been uncanonized (tho some of it still made it into the game eventually afaik). Where there are inconsistencies sure, the game trumps outside sources, but as far as Quel'danil is concerned the game doesn't.

The Mangas are of dubious canonicity. Some maybe true, some definitely aren't, but none can be relied upon. As an example, the 'Crusader's Blood' manga tells the tale of an innkeeper in Brill during classic, an undead, who tells a captive dwarf a story about a Scarlet Crusade Commander whose thirst for vengeance against the Forsaken leads her to take worse and worse actions until eventually, Sylvanas herself comes to put her down with Varimathras. The sting in the tale is that the innkeeper WAS the the commander, raised into undeath by Sylvanas as the Forsaken she so loathed.

Except..that's not possible. Sylvanas only gained the capacity to raise new Forsaken following the fall of the lich king and her bargain with the val'kyr. This means the story cannot be canonical. Quel'Danil's apparent aversion to magic is sourced from the Warrior ivided and Warrior :United mangas. I don't believe it has been mentioned or explored anywhere else. Frankly Quel'Danil is too minor a settlement in too remote an area to truly examine whether they even have this philosophy. Even if they did, their size and remoteness renders them irrelevant.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

to be fair Blood Elves in WC3 Classic still had blue eyes

Not really. most high and blood elves actually had white eyes; only priests had either blue or green eyes, depending on the HE or BE skin they used.

[Obelisk Kai]

Faction identity has been a dead horse the moment void elves were introduced anyway:



So just give me the fcking Alleria skin tone.

Every time someone points this out the obvious answer is, why don't you just dress your Void Elf up like this and pretend?

And the 'alleria skin tone' you probably won't be getting is just an aide to assist in that pretence.

It's still going to be a Void Elf.

[Varodoc]

Every time someone points this out the obvious answer is, why don't you just dress your Void Elf up like this and pretend?

And the 'alleria skin tone' you probably won't be getting is just an aide to assist in that pretence.

It's still going to be a Void Elf.

Actually you are wrong, my void elf is secretly a black dragon aspect who infiltrated the Alliance and seeks to bring it down from within. After all, Blizzard made it clear that they want players to have maximum freedom in their RP.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Do you think that tattoos were invented after exile of high elves?

I think it's a matter that they have culturally evolved beyond that; Alleria -and I would say her rangers- exists in a sort of stasis of a previous time where these tattoos and braids and feathers were more commonplace -for Farstriders at least- we can clearly see how they evoke a more kaldorei sensibility.

Blood Elves on the other hand, consolidated as more of a "city elf", the Farstriders lost power with the advent of the Blood Knights, and BE's as a whole started to move forward as a society to survive.

The little we have seen of the BE expanded customization leans closer to urban opulence (jewelry, gold chains) and further away from the woodsy ranger aesthetic that Alleria (as a VE/HE) represents.

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Every time someone points this out the obvious answer is, why don't you just dress your Void Elf up like this and pretend?

And the 'alleria skin tone' you probably won't be getting is just an aide to assist in that pretence.

It's still going to be a Void Elf.

Because -people have said this to you multiple times- it still does not address the High Elves lore. So if you don't have neither the aesthetic nor the lore... yo have nothing but a velf that could be a he if you cover them up.

[FlubberPuddy]

If "headliners" from the WOW community support the request of the High Elves, the message will be even stronger.

I CANNOT wait for the T&E video now

[Obelisk Kai]

There is no doublethink. If lore matters the High Elves have that in spades. High Elf request may be popular but it's basis is very well established within the lore. It is not some request that has no backing by the lore at all, and only reason it comes up continually is because Blizzard themselves continue to insert High Elves among the Alliance.

So I don't think there's anything to fret over. But you can keep thinking how you want, there's no longer any reason to debate on this matter.

High Elf request is now more hopeful to be continued as an ongoing request by Alliance players. That's the BIG WIN.

What a truly ridiculous passage. You altered from discussing void elf customisation to the high elf request. Now, I was talking about void elf customisation in the above quote. The doublethink, which is evident through your multiple posts tonight, is that you are able to accept (and celebrate) Blood Elves not getting blue eyes for reasons of lore despite the popularity of the request, yet still expect Void Elves to get high elf like skin tones despite them breaking the lore...because of the popularity of the request.

So switching to the high elf request as a whole is an attempt to avoid answering the charge. The high elf request for a distinct allied race option is pretty much finished and has been since the introduction of Void Elves. Void Elf customisations, the ones you want, just became incredibly unlikely to happen.

It wasn't logical. It did start with a conclusion, because the conclusion was "Blood Elves are justified to have blue eyes" and then people dug up that explanation as justification for it.

Regardless, it's not an important distinction as all. Because what matters is what's actually allowed by the game. And that is no blue eyes for Blood Elves!!

Blue eyes are clearly a distinguishing feature for Void Elves then.

You keep thinking Eye color for Blood Elves is a 'small thing', it is in fact huuuuuuge from a lore perspective. Some races, eye color doesn't mean much, like humans/gnomes/dwarves/orcs/tauren/ etc.

For Blood Elves it absolutely does. They drew the 'eye color has meaning' straw.

See? Doublethink. The ability to hold two mutually contradictory ideas at the same time and believe both to be true. Here you invest eye colour with a lot of meaning but you refuse to logically extended the consequences of the reasoning behind this decision to skin tones. Skin tones are of course of vastly more import than eye colour, given that was how Blizzard to decided to differentiate Blood/High Elves from Void Elves. That you still believe those high elf skin tones on Void Elves are likely after this rationale has to involve a considerable skill at compartmentalising facts and reaching different conclusions.

The real difference between eye colour and skin tone is that you didn't want Blood Elves to have blue eyes and you want Void Elves to have high elf skins. This is why you are seemingly incapable of drawing the obvious conclusion, that if an eye colour was denied from Blood Elves for reasons of lore, then the skin tones you crave will similarly be denied from Void Elves for reasons of lore.

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Because -people have said this to you multiple times- it still does not address the High Elves lore. So if you don't have neither the aesthetic nor the lore... yo have nothing but a velf that could be a he if you cover them up.

So if you KNOW the difference then, then there is a difference, and dressing two elves up in armour proves nothing? Because as I said, the comparison itself is ridiculous. You can't argue that it proves faction diversity wrong on the one hand then complain about how it isn't what you want on the other.

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Actually you are wrong, my void elf is secretly a black dragon aspect who infiltrated the Alliance and seeks to bring it down from within. After all, Blizzard made it clear that they want players to have maximum freedom in their RP.

There can only be one aspect at a time and Thrall was the last person to hold that power..and there was a ritual to empower him as such. So what you wrote is impossible as it is inconsistent with lore. Maximum freedom does not mean unlimited freedom. There are limits.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

So if you KNOW the difference then, then there is a difference, and dressing two elves up in armour proves nothing? Because as I said, the comparison itself is ridiculous. You can't argue that it proves faction diversity wrong on the one hand then complain about how it isn't what you want on the other.

No, because it exemplifies that the difference is so minimal for gameplay purposes -silhouette argument- there's just no need of "faction identity" for gameplay purposes, so customization is just about aesthetics.

There's no "functionality" to faction identity, it's just an enforced dichotomy for segregation's sake that goes against lore and player agency of "choosing" a side.

[Mace]

Ion says Blood elves aren't getting blue eyes. And he says because it isn't appropriate for the group.

[Beloren]

Ion says Blood elves aren't getting blue eyes. And he says because it isn't appropriate for the group.

What????????

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[FlubberPuddy]

The high elf request for a distinct allied race option is pretty much finished and has been since the introduction of Void Elves. Void Elf customisations, the ones you want, just became incredibly unlikely to happen.

No one's switching, everyone's moving with the waves. If you want to recall Ion's exact statements for High Elves as an Allied Race were: Anything's possible in the future, but no plans in the near term.

People just extrapolate 'oh cuz wildhammer are coming through this increased customizations then they won't make separate AR for High Elves.' But no dev statement explicitly states that. It's not explicit like 'I can confirm Blue Eyed Blood Elves are not happening.'

Other explicit dev statements have been that High Elf fantasy can come through Void Elf customization options. So I'm not sure what you're arguing for at this point.

I snipped out the rest because it seems like the major anti-helf argument submarine is sinking into the proverbial ocean and you're trying to keep something, anything, afloat. While also glossing over things I've mentioned such as those new NPC options for Blue Eyes are new texture files that haven't previously been in the game before.

I remember when you used to argue that they don't update NPCs because they don't matter. So it looks like there's a reason for updating the blue eye high elf NPCs, even if it may not be for character customization purposes atm.

High Elves have a better chance of happening now, more than ever. What form it takes, whether it's through Void Elf customization or through some further developed way to incorporate races into the overall two factions. Or hell even as another Allied Race option, we'll just have to wait and see.

Like I've said before, the biggest hurdle is already over: Getting the Thalassian model to the Alliance. Another great hurdle was gotten over today: No Blue Eyes for Blood Elves because it doesn't make sense for how they've evolved as a race.

I also remember you saying there's a finite amount of racial types they'll come out with for the factions, because as Ion himself put it "they don't want to lose a sense of silhouettes."

Well, now the Thalassian silhouette is part of both factions. Blue Eyes aren't coming to Horde Elves. And Void Elf fans are most often wanting to look like their leader, Alleria - who fits the entire aesthetic of what a High Elf is (even noted by Ion here too). And ofc there is the ever present, and much more jubilant people continually requesting the High Elves that are among their faction.

Whenever it's decided, and I've said this before, for Elves to be another race option to be added to Alliance. At this point, High Elves become the most optimal choice. And Blizzard have placed all the pieces to back them up on implementing this now.

[Strippling]

Dang too many comments to read through! Funny though how y'all have bashed on ion constantly and now hold his word as 'truth'. I suggest you apply the same logic to his comments about high elves blurring faction lines.

It's a bummer blood elves aren't getting blue eyes, as it'd be fitting for blood elf mages but it is what it is and I'll accept the reasoning behind it, given its come from the Devs. Likewise though, I still agree with the reasoning that high elves would just blur faction lines and strongly believe that void elves should maintain their void aesthetic as they have transformed from a light skinned elf and did not undergo the same transformation as Alleria.

[FlubberPuddy]

What????????

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This reminded me of the Darth Vader meme. I'm sorry but it's the truth.

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Ion says Blood elves aren't getting blue eyes. And he says because it isn't appropriate for the group.

Yeah it's pretty great, he finally stated something correct on lore

[Uthan]

Given that the same people currently celebrating what Ion said spent months trying to ignore what he said in 2018, or calling him an idiot, the sheer level of hypocrisy on display at the moment is illuminating.

As for the line regarding a different relationship with magic and the sunwell, that one was quite vague and open to interpretation. After all, one valid interpretation is that the different relationship with magic refers to the philosophical split over how to deal with their addiction and the loss of the sunwell which precipitated the schism.

Supplementary evidence is as follows to confirm this interpretation.

Blood and honor confirms the Sunwell has no limits. You don't need to visit it, it simply is. So long as it exists it's radiance transcends time, space and even reality to sustain all thalassian elves.

In the Shadow of the Sun confirmed high elven exiles can still feel the Sunwell, and they can feel it's difference. This was from an exile priestess who admitted she could feel it upon it's restoration but who only learned the fact of it's restoration upon Kael'thas confirming it had happened.

Cataclysm showed both Blood Elves and exiles visiting the Sunwell in pilgrimage.

All canonical sources emphasising that high elves and Blood Elves share the same connection to the sunwell, fully consistent with what Ion said.

The only thalassian elves who probably are cut off from the Sunwell are the Void Elves, given that, canonically, mixing a light based energy sourced with a void based physiology would probably lead to spectacularly bad results. Void Elves likely sate their addiction through a direct connection to the void.



The Mangas are of dubious canonicity. Some maybe true, some definitely aren't, but none can be relied upon. As an example, the 'Crusader's Blood' manga tells the tale of an innkeeper in Brill during classic, an undead, who tells a captive dwarf a story about a Scarlet Crusade Commander whose thirst for vengeance against the Forsaken leads her to take worse and worse actions until eventually, Sylvanas herself comes to put her down with Varimathras. The sting in the tale is that the innkeeper WAS the the commander, raised into undeath by Sylvanas as the Forsaken she so loathed.

Except..that's not possible. Sylvanas only gained the capacity to raise new Forsaken following the fall of the lich king and her bargain with the val'kyr. This means the story cannot be canonical. Quel'Danil's apparent aversion to magic is sourced from the Warrior ivided and Warrior :United mangas. I don't believe it has been mentioned or explored anywhere else. Frankly Quel'Danil is too minor a settlement in too remote an area to truly examine whether they even have this philosophy. Even if they did, their size and remoteness renders them irrelevant.

I still consider his statements in 2018 to be disrespectful and contrary to what's shown in the game, doesn't necessarily make it hypocritical to celebrate (though feels like too strong a word) his updated stance (ie blue eyed elves not being a horde thing). Though it also kinda further proves that there's no solid be-all and end-all answers, even from high-up Blizz employees, and that there's bound to be discrepancies between what's in the game, what the devs say at any given time and out of game lore sources as things will always change (even to the point of retcons) to fit where they want the game to go forward (which is itself bound to change as the game moves forward, different/new developers prioritize different things, in response to feedback, etc etc).

Regardless, I'm happy to see my main point got across, that this is all up to interpretation. Maybe it's not intended, but you often come across as having yours be the one true interpretation of the facts rather than just that, one subjective take on it based on the facts you personally find to have the most weight to them, and dismissing everyone elses interpretations completely, which for obvious reasons comes off as kinda hostile.

[FlubberPuddy]

Imagine if he did end up saying "I can confirm the blue eyes on blood elves is correct." You'd be seeing anti-helfers having a field day with that.

It wouldn't have produced some different outcome, just switched which side got to express a 'win'.

Difference is there was threads upon threads of people taking the datamining and lording it over with comments such as "here we go, blue eyes confirmed for blood elves!" "there's your high elves alliance, the debate can finally be put to rest!" etc etc.

Whereas those requesting High Elves are just trying to keep one single thread open.

And all that is required to show it is taking a gander at official US forums. It's the people who are very notable 'anti-helfers' that have started producing thread upon thread complaining about Ion's statement today.

The single current 'High Elf love thread' has kept the majority of its excitement within that single thread without spamming the forums.

[DarkT]

Just curious. Why don't you guys give feedback about how to make the current Alliance race's more appealing instead of asking for opposite faction's most popular race? Another human-looking race would be boring imo.

[Mace]

This reminded me of the Darth Vader meme. I'm sorry but it's the truth.



Yeah it's pretty great, he finally stated something correct on lore

Tbh, I am a little relieved, but curious, I did not expect this from them.

[FlubberPuddy]

Just curious. Why don't you guys give feedback about how to make the current Alliance race's more appealing instead of asking for opposite faction's most popular race? Another human-looking race would be boring imo.

We're asking for a race that's on Alliance and has existed on it before Blood Elves were on Horde.

IE The High Elves. The Blue Eyed folk. The non-corrupt folks.

And you can say another 'human-looking race would be boring' but those appear to be what's most popular so... clearly many people like 'boring' it seems.

Not an issue.