Russian invasion of Ukraine

[zealo]

Poland baiting Russia.

Kaliningrad: Russia fury as Poland body recommends renaming exclave

Muscovy can go kick a rock if it thinks anyone ought to care about their opinion on such matters by now.

[Kaleredar]

Russia is so arrogant and ignorant they think they can fight most of the world, which is effectively what they're doing given the supplies flowing into Ukraine every day. How stupid can you get?

It’s the sunk cost fallacy.

They swung at Ukraine thinking they’d show the world how big and strong they were against a weaker opponent and go home with an easy win.

Ukraine swung back. So now in order to “save face” internally and (hah) externally Russia needs to keep fighting, lest they look weak.

Now of course anyone paying attention knows Russia is weak. But they’re too far in the hole to do the right and smart thing, which is to just give up.

[Kralljin]

Muscovy can go kick a rock if it thinks anyone ought to care about their opinion on such matters by now.

I don't know, i'm not opposed to pissing off Russia's government for its own sake but wanting to rename a region that's not even part of your country is just weird.

Like what's the point? The name Poland wants to use is even the original german one (albeit translated into polish), as this territory was german before for hundreds of years.

[Azadina]

I love how Prig the Prick just did the best drunkard routine of his life, and committed suicide by insulting the Führer directly.

Just counting the minutes now.

[Muzjhath]

I don't know, i'm not opposed to pissing off Russia's government for its own sake but wanting to rename a region that's not even part of your country is just weird.

Like what's the point? The name Poland wants to use is even the original german one (albeit translated into polish), as this territory was german before for hundreds of years.

They aren't renaming it really.
Just using a historical name that's translated.

Same as in Sweden Gothenburg isn't said like that.

And if any country is historically great at renaming it's Russia.
Looking at you St Petersburg, Petrograd, Lebingrad, St Petersburg

While two of those names are technically the same in meaning (petrograd).

This is more Poland doing a late reaction to being independent.
Lots of history books call St Petersburg that when it was technically named Petrograd

[Kralljin]

They aren't renaming it really.
Just using a historical name that's translated.

Yeah but that historical name is not being used be people that own the territory.

Belgians also would probably not be too pleased if the Netherlands started calling Belgium "Zuid Nederland" because they owned most of what now known as Belgium sometime during the 1800's.

This is more Poland doing a late reaction to being independent.
Lots of history books call St Petersburg that when it was technically named Petrograd

I think there is however the difference that St Petersburg was russian for hundreds of years by now and those renames were pretty much always done by the russians themselves, whereas Kaliningrad was taken from germany.

Bit of a difference whether you choose to rename that you own by yourself and when someone else decides to call a place you own by the name of the previous owner.

It's less about renaming itself, but rather deliberately choosing the previous name as basis.

[YUPPIE]

seems like Ukraine has liberated Bahkmut despite Russia's warnings of a "red line." Headlines are breaking all over of a complete breakthrough.

[Fuiking]

Yeah but that historical name is not being used be people that own the territory.

Belgians also would probably not be too pleased if the Netherlands started calling Belgium "Zuid Nederland" because they owned most of what now known as Belgium sometime during the 1800's.

I think there is however the difference that St Petersburg was russian for hundreds of years by now and those renames were pretty much always done by the russians themselves, whereas Kaliningrad was taken from germany.

Bit of a difference whether you choose to rename that you own by yourself and when someone else decides to call a place you own by the name of the previous owner.

It's less about renaming itself, but rather deliberately choosing the previous name as basis.

Netherlands never controlled Belgium that long, only about 50 years.

[Kralljin]

Netherlands never controlled Belgium that long, only about 50 years.

And Russia has been controlling Kaliningrad for less than 80 years, with germany even formally recognizing that Russia owns this territory.
Whether you call a place by a specific name can be quite the politically contentious issue, especially when talking about territory that was annexed.

[Xyonai]

seems like Ukraine has liberated Bahkmut despite Russia's warnings of a "red line." Headlines are breaking all over of a complete breakthrough.

Fucking hilarious, and amazing, if legit.

[Flarelaine]

Beyond pissing Russia off, this is also a way of refusing to recognize the legitimacy of Russia's control of said territory. Before WWII, the town was mostly German with sizable Polish and Lithuanian minorities. Now it's all Russian and the Russian name is denying its entire past.

[Iphie]

Fucking hilarious, and amazing, if legit.

Whaddaya know, YUPPIE actually was sorta right.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-ne...ter-offensive/

It's the telegraph, but some other sources say the same. I guess pricky should start thinking about doing a civil special military operation...

[Saradain]

Whaddaya know, YUPPIE actually was sorta right.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-ne...ter-offensive/

It's the telegraph, but some other sources say the same. I guess pricky should start thinking about doing a civil special military operation...

Nah, he is desperately exaggerating and sensationalizing headlines to get attention. Every "brutal attack" always ends up with "fully countered" in the article, every full-out "liberation" is just a minor success...What ends does this serve? Every Nazi russian offensive is exaggerated as if it would be a doomsday for Ukraine, every success for Ukraine is exaggerated by him to make any Ukraine-positive news pieces less impressive...

Hmm

[YUPPIE]

I am only worried about Putin's rage as a result of Bahkmut. From what we've seen of his appearance and inflection in the parade, he seems like he's always about to explode from impotent anger. Like this news of Bahkmut coming the day after people laughed at his huge fascist/anti-West speech must not be good for his increasingly diminishing sanity.

[Goat7]

What we have learned is Russia's military is absolute horseshit. In fact, if it wasn't for the threat of nuclear weapon use, Russia could be invaded and taken by blind children with potato guns.

[Iphie]

Nah, he is desperately exaggerating and sensationalizing headlines to get attention. Every "brutal attack" always ends up with "fully countered" in the article, every full-out "liberation" is just a minor success...What ends does this serve? Every Nazi russian offensive is exaggerated as if it would be a doomsday for Ukraine, every success for Ukraine is exaggerated by him to make any Ukraine-positive news pieces less impressive...

Hmm

Saradain, "sorta right", something did happen in Bakhmut that is being reported on and it seems to be a counter attack. Yuppie was hyperbolic yes but not 100% wrong as they usually are.

EDIT:

Something IS happening in Bakhmut:

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/05...a-ukraine-news

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/05...-officials-say

https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukraine...rages-74d391e9

[zealo]

I don't know, i'm not opposed to pissing off Russia's government for its own sake but wanting to rename a region that's not even part of your country is just weird.

Like what's the point? The name Poland wants to use is even the original german one (albeit translated into polish), as this territory was german before for hundreds of years.

Calling it Muscovy is simply deconstructing their country name of the pan-slavic sentiments that led to that name's creation in the first place. It's no accident that the phrasing of "all Russias" as a plural used to be used as a title for the tsars, and that they throughout history used to call what is now Ukraine a "Little Russia", which is a sentiment still very much alive in Russian nationalism about Ukraine.

As for what Poland is doing, the name they're proposing putting into use has far deeper historical roots than being named after a dude who was in the USSR Politburo during Stalin's time, too.

[Lynarii]

Yeah but that historical name is not being used be people that own the territory.

Belgians also would probably not be too pleased if the Netherlands started calling Belgium "Zuid Nederland" because they owned most of what now known as Belgium sometime during the 1800's.

I think there is however the difference that St Petersburg was russian for hundreds of years by now and those renames were pretty much always done by the russians themselves, whereas Kaliningrad was taken from germany.

Bit of a difference whether you choose to rename that you own by yourself and when someone else decides to call a place you own by the name of the previous owner.

It's less about renaming itself, but rather deliberately choosing the previous name as basis.

Poland isn't really renaming the place anyway, just changing the name that they use to refer to it. It's not actually uncommon at all for the words a place calls itself and what everyone else calls it to not match. Just as an easy example, China. China is NOT the name that the country calls itself, it's what we English speakers call it. At this point, it would be trivially easy for us to change the name we use to match what they call themselves, but we won't, because if there's one thing we inherited from the British Empire it's an insistence on using our name for things no matter how appropriate the names actually are.

[Kralljin]

Calling it Muscovy is simply deconstructing their country name of the pan-slavic sentiments that led to that name's creation in the first place.

I'm not sure if a german name translated into polish is a much better fit, though.

It's no accident that the phrasing of "all Russias" as a plural used to be used as a title for the tsars, and that they throughout history used to call what is now Ukraine a "Little Russia", which is a sentiment still very much alive in Russian nationalism about Ukraine.

However it needs to be recognized that there is (or very likely in future, was) quite the overlap between russian culture and the Ukrainian one.

The entire issue stems from Russia asserting that due to that, those countries have to follow its lead, which obviously runs contrary to Ukraine being a sovereign nation.

As for what Poland is doing, the name they're proposing putting into use has far deeper historical roots than being named after a dude who was in the USSR Politburo during Stalin's time, too.

The point still stands, i think renaming your own territory is perfectly fine and any country can do whatever they like but renaming parts of other countries because you don't like it is just silly.

And those historical roots are frankly tied to something that seems especially odd for Poland to refer to, as this was originally german territory.
Which comes across as questionable when you add to this what @Flarelaine posted that Poland seems to deny legitimacy of russia owning that territory, as it raises the question: Who owns this territory?
Germany? Are we going down this rabbit hole?

Poland isn't really renaming the place anyway, just changing the name that they use to refer to it.

I mean, it's a semantic argument because there is some political decision behind on how you refer to a specific place.

You said it yourself, China is a good example, because whether i refer to Taiwan as the republic of China or Taiwan makes quite the difference.

[Lynarii]

I mean, it's a semantic argument because there is some political decision behind on how you refer to a specific place.

You said it yourself, China is a good example, because whether i refer to Taiwan as the republic of China or Taiwan makes quite the difference.

There is definitely political decision behind it. Mostly what I'm saying that this is merely political gamesmanship rather than a substantive change that will affect anyone who lives or works in the area. Poland is doing it purely because it makes the russians angry, there's little deeper meaning or significance to the move than that. They're using an older name for it because it's something that they can maybe get away with more than because they have a real attachment to the older name, they'd call it 'Putinhasasmalldickland' if they thought they could pass the bill and get it on their official communications.