Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Kyriani]

but during Alliance war campaign, we've seen them quite often in considerable numbers, they were even part of that suicide mission in Nazmir...

I wouldn't take anything from that. Blizz is on record as saying "there are as many as we need there to be", when it comes to in-game npc's. We've always been told not to take the number of npc's in game as any sort of population indication for a specific race.

The Void Elves in the Nazmir suicide mission made absolutely no sense. There's no way that many Blood Elf defectors and Alliance High Elves all got void-roided out, mastered their powers enough to not be a danger to themselves or others, just to throw their lives away, in such a short amount of time. Especially not when Thalassians as a people already have a dangerously low population. In this case I think it was just poor writing/decision making. They wanted to highlight Void Elves "fighting for the Alliance" but the fact is, there's just no way that they'd have that many Void Elves to just throw away.

And even if we throw out the logic of "making" Void Elves (which we were told at the time Void Elves hadn't figured out yet (i.e. the devs hadn't thought that far ahead), just how many Silvermoon Scholars defected from Silvermoon and how many Alliance High Elf Wayfarers could or would, sign up for Void Class 101, just to die? It doesn't make sense. And that's why I don't put any stock in the number of Void Elves we saw at the Nazmir Suicide mission.

[Vaedan]

I wouldn't take anything from that. Blizz is on record as saying "there are as many as we need there to be", when it comes to in-game npc's. We've always been told not to take the number of npc's in game as any sort of population indication for a specific race.

The Void Elves in the Nazmir suicide mission made absolutely no sense. There's no way that many Blood Elf defectors and Alliance High Elves all got void-roided out, mastered their powers enough to not be a danger to themselves or others, just to throw their lives away, in such a short amount of time. Especially not when Thalassians as a people already have a dangerously low population. In this case I think it was just poor writing/decision making. They wanted to highlight Void Elves "fighting for the Alliance" but the fact is, there's just no way that they'd have that many Void Elves to just throw away.

And even if we throw out the logic of "making" Void Elves (which we were told at the time Void Elves hadn't figured out yet (i.e. the devs hadn't thought that far ahead), just how many Silvermoon Scholars defected from Silvermoon and how many Alliance High Elf Wayfarers could or would, sign up for Void Class 101, just to die? It doesn't make sense. And that's why I don't put any stock in the number of Void Elves we saw at the Nazmir Suicide mission.

I know we can't relate NPCs numbers to actual population that race has to offer, but even then, we see void elves way too often for them to be just "few special elves". Not that I mind that, it's just really awkward that they should be extremely rare... I guess it's similar to the treatment Alliance high elves were getting for the whole time. They were meant to be like 1% of the original thalassian population and yet they were present in almost every expansion in healthy numbers.

To be honest, not even night elves made sense in that mission. Not that they were already genocided like a year ago, I think most of kaldorei would be more likely participate in Darkshore fights. To be completely honest, sending troops to die makes no sense. It was clear 7th Legion wanted to divide Horde's attention, but you can do it in more ways, not only sending valuable troops to die. Alliance could employ Tidesages who can summon elementals to their side, they could use some constructs build by gnomes with remote control... or they could just take over important structures and imploy guerilla fights in the jungle. They needed to buy time, not to waste their troops... but I guess this mission was meant to show us that Alliance is willing to sacrifice its men for greater good.

Very clearly Ion's comment about the Ren'dorei being a small elite crack squad can be disregarded entirely, because BfA (and now Shadows Rising) paint a very different picture.

Blizzard is pretty inconsistent when it comes to population numbers usually, so I guess you're right. The problem is that we even don't know what is population status of both Horde and Alliance post numerous wars and crisis we've been through over the years. In most cases, we get no information about casualties, or we get only vague information like "Too many died" or "There is not much left anymore". Just look at night elves... we can't even tell if they are on the brink of extinction or not... not to mention that if there would be any logic involved, most of Horde races would be extinct by now, especially trolls and orcs (if they are not breeding like rabbits and reach full maturity in 2 years, what is considered to be general lenght of expansion in lore).

[Varodoc]

It's not strange that the Ren'dorei would have such a high population number. People forget that, though 90% of the Quel'dorei were slaughtered by Arthas, Quel'thalas had been at peace for 4.000+ years (aside from the Second War, which didn't cause too much death and destruction). Since the Troll Wars, Quel'thalas had been flourishing without any catastrophe. So of course the Quel'dorei base population was very high, definitely in the millions. So then even if 90% of them were slaughtered, the Blood elves probably still had hundreds of thousands of people, at which point it wouldn't be a surprise if the Ren'dorei, who were further bolstered by scholars, would number in the thousands or even tens of thousands...

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard is pretty inconsistent when it comes to population numbers usually, so I guess you're right. The problem is that we even don't know what is population status of both Horde and Alliance post numerous wars and crisis we've been through over the years. In most cases, we get no information about casualties, or we get only vague information like "Too many died" or "There is not much left anymore". Just look at night elves... we can't even tell if they are on the brink of extinction or not... not to mention that if there would be any logic involved, most of Horde races would be extinct by now, especially trolls and orcs (if they are not breeding like rabbits and reach full maturity in 2 years, what is considered to be general lenght of expansion in lore).

Put it like this. We irl humans number in the billions after thousands of years of war. In comparison, Quel'thalas had 4.000+ years of peace. I know that the elves in other settings, like Elder Scrolls, have a much lower birth rate compared to humans, but I don't believe this rule applies to Thalassian elves. So imagine 4.000+ years of peace and human-like birth rate. Certainly their population would be very high, No? At which point, even if the Ren'dorei were like a fraction of a fraction of the original Quel'dorei population, they would still be able to field tens of thousands of soldiers.

You don't even need population numbers or anything that complicated for this, just basic logic. If a kingdom doesn't have any wars for milennias, then I would assume their population would be very high and prosperous. Wars usually cause a lot of people to die, after all.

I also believe it is specifically mentioned in the Chronicles how Quel'thalas enjoyed a very long period of peace, prosperity, and stability after the Troll Wars. From Wowpedia, after the Troll Wars:

Jintha was among the first to fall. Leaderless, the Amani broke ranks and retreated north, but were hunted down and slaughtered at every turn. The disastrous battle shocked the Zandalari emissaries, who fled back to their island in shame and disbelief. For them, this defeat marked a dark turning point in history. Yet for Quel'Thalas, the war was the beginning of a glorious new era. For months after the conflict's end, celebrations graced the streets of Silvermoon. The grateful elves pledged their loyalty to Arathor and Thoradin's descendants.[18]

Years passed, and Quel'Thalas continued its prosperous growth.

[Ardenaso]

Fair enough

That I'm actually interested in is how many blood elves defected to the Alliance

I'd really consider Landalock to be a Blood Elf from Kael's group who returned back to the Alliance because he had a "liaison" with a Shivarra, and that was only possible after Magtheridon fell and the demons pledged to Illidan

- - - Updated - - -

wow this is really proof that Void Elves are increasing by the minute, though I'd make a small nitpick on why they aren't falling in line by height. I'd imagine Telamoon here doing the Erwin Smith on their suicide charge in Nazmir

[Rhlor]

"Blood Elves are the real High Elves, and the High Elves today are posers

(and this is coming from someone who was an Alliance-biased pro-helfer)

(but although I would really love a unification of Vereesa, Umbric, and Mordent's Highborne in Eldre'thalas and make it their new stronghold with Alleria as their leader; Tyrande should really allow them at this point to bask in their Well of Eternity as well)"

No, buddy, you're wrong. Blood ELves didn't identified themselves as high elves. Quel'dorei is just a past time, history period for them and they speak about themselves as a separate nation.
High Elves today still High Elves today. Who real posers? Void Elves. They aren't just a nation and a bunch of people - just a little etnos and a tribe of voidlovers. And don't take on the role of a judge and an expert like Ponasenkov - cause I can easily said that you're a casual and lover of any kind of poop from Blizzard, if we are Alliance-bias here. Ideally, there shouldn't be a ren'dorei and there won't be. The topic of the high elves as a separate race will be relevant, and Blizzard's handouts and such "experts" like you will not be a hindrance.

separate nation ?? they are exactly the same people and they live in the same place, speak the same language, have the same culture and the same institutions

- - - Updated - - -

That is actually incorrect. The exile was not self imposted by high elves, it was Lor'themar who decided to exile them for the little reason of not agreeing on new methods of mana tapping and using unstable and dangerous sources of magic (like Fel) to sate their addiction. They were given no choice, they were kicked out. Blood elves did not give them any other opportunity. Lor'themar later regreted doing so, basically proving their point.

Don't forget that at the time of their exile, blood elves were not part of the Alliance anymore, but they were not part of the Horde yet (they become part of Horde during questing experience in Eversong/Ghostlands, which is AFTER exile of high elves). At that time, exiled elves who sided with the Alliance did not really sided with the enemy of their people, since Alliance was not the enemy of sin'dorei yet.



They sided with the Alliance since they possibly had friends and connections there, so it is logical they went for help in that direction. They were not really numerous and had many enemies on their territories. Many high elves indeed joined factions later considered neutral, such as Kirin Tor, so your complaint is not really on the place.




You know that they were pretty much exiled for wanting overcome addiction, not just fed it with mana? Why they did not went to Ghostlands? Well, they were kicked out, it was blood elves who did not want them there. As seen in cata, as soon as Lor'themar invited them to Ghostlands during Amani crisis, Vereesa and her rangers went to help to defend their nation, so if blood elves actually showed a good will and were willing to give high elves purpose, they would not went away.

Also don't forget that following Third War, Dalaran was completely destroyed by Archimonde. High elves who went to Dalaran pretty much did not have luxurious and comfy life. They most likely had to contribute to Dalaran's rebuilding, which took until WotLK, so actually longer then Silvermoon's restoration. After Dalaran was rebuilded, sure they were allowed to use it's comforts, but I guess they earned them, since they were there to rebuild it alongside Kirin Tor. From their point of view, it's not hard to imagine their disgust when blood elves, who kicked them from their country, went to Dalaran and wanted to share it them.



Yes, the animosity of High Elves went beyond the edge with the Purge. I guess some high elves still hold grudges towards blood elves for exiling them. In their point of view, it was quel'dorei who stayed true to thalassian way of life, while sin'dorei were all willing to meddle with dark magics and sucking mana out of living creatures. I guess these high elves, who had to endure the hardships of their exile and remained true to the name "high elves" feel insulted when blood elves, after draenei helped reignite Sunwell, now all of sudden looks like they never tortured a naaru, they never sucked mana and they were keeper of thalassian traditions all along. They were not. They come to them once their problems were fixed, but they really did not stay true their principles in the darkest hour. I don't want to say that blood elves were wrong, I'm just pointing out why some high elves may feel towards blood elves.



I believe both groups have their own arguments for being labeled real high elf and they dismiss the claim the other group has on this matter. Blood elves are in great advantage by ruling their ancestral homeland.



I'd love that too.

The only group that was exiled originally for that reason was false, people like vereesa are obviously exiled for being a traitor but she already lived in dalaran and formed her faction because she hated the orcs, the elves of queldanil They already lived there, they were not exiled.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I really love this take on it! I've always wanted a healing spec for mages that revolved around using Chronomancy to "undo" injuries. That same concept applied to Void healing in general is most appealing to me.

Yah! I think overall they could make a great healing concept based on something like this.

- - - Updated - - -

With all the fuzz going on and everyone getting blue eyes, there is one thing that is pretty clear.

Blood elves look and feel like true high elves.. the irony.

/hairflip.

What's interesting about comments like these is that they assume there is such a thing as a "true high elf".

Which, there really isn't. There are just different concepts and contexts each of us regard as our preferred choice.

Cause if you look it from a origin perspective based on War2 and their introduction, Blood Elves will never be "true" High Elves because they are not alliance.

If you look it from an aesthetic perspective, VE and their new options will never be "true high elves" because they don't have blonde, white and brown hair colors.

If you look it from a in lore perspective; neither is a "true high elf", because blood elves, void elves and and modern high elves are all different iterations of a previous group, with bifurcating ideologies, cultures and politics.

How would a blood elf with blue eyes feel like a "true high elf" for someone that sees High elves as linked to their history to the alliance?

But I also always wonder, why are some horde players so bent on reclaiming "high elf" when in universe blood elves willingly redefined themselves?

It's just weird at this point.

There are no true High Elves now, because that ended when Quel'thalas fell. We either have Blood Elves, the majority of the survivors reinventing themselves looking for a future, and modern High Elves, which are a small group of expats assimilated into human culture that might as well change their name now.

Yet those expats are the ones still using the name, and at this point it's just sheer obstination for people to just not get that in fact, in the present, high elf simply makes reference to thalassians that still call themselves that.

[delus]

Well, it seems that Blizzard went to the road that "high elf" is mutual term for all thalassians. Blood elves are high elves, void elves are high elves...

Blood elves indeed look like proper high elf, no doubt. I believe we will have more options for that on void elves too once allied races will get their time with more customizations.

Also, even now, not all void elf hairstyles have tentacles

They could easily go with more fel and light customizations for blood elves.

[Tinniel]

Ren'dorei aren't posers at all. They are their own unique race evolved from Blood elves after being mutated by the Void.

They don't even have such a small population, since their forces participated in several major battles of the Fourth War, including the suicide mission at Nazmir.

Oh, yeah-yeah. Not such small population? How many? 1000? 1500? And counting how many ren'dorei died on the Lordaeron Siege and then in Nazmir. Ren'dorei is a young and duying ethnos from birth. So High Elves looks like a supreme nation near them.

[Varodoc]

Oh, yeah-yeah. Not such small population? How many? 1000? 1500? And counting how many ren'dorei died on the Lordaeron Siege and then in Nazmir. Ren'dorei is a young and duying ethnos from birth. So High Elves looks like a supreme nation near them.

I do not believe any Void elf actually died in the Battle of Lordaeron, but then again I only played it on Alliance side, maybe you kill some mobs on the Horde side. As for Nazmir, it appears the losses suffered there were deemed acceptable by Alleria, otherwise... well, she would not have sent so many troops to a suicide mission. Consequently, it also means that whatever loss they suffered at Lordaeron was not deemed severe enough.

And yes, the Ren'dorei are a young race, that is the point in case you had not noticed. They are meant to be a new race of elves that was mutated by the Void. For the first time in the history of WoW, we can play as a new race that has not been established for centuries. Also, they are not a dying race at all, since their numbers are bolstered by both Blood elf and High elf scholars, and they might find a way to replicate the transformation process too. And, well, they will not die simply because they are a playable race.

Finally, I hope you realize that the High elves were also a young and relatively small race in the past. Since, you know, they were a bunch of exiled mages on some ships fleeing Kalimdor.

Regardless, do not worry, you can now fulfill your Helfer fantasies by playing a fair-skin Void elf .

[Tinniel]

I do not believe any Void elf actually died in the Battle of Lordaeron, but then again I only played it on Alliance side, maybe you kill some mobs on the Horde side. As for Nazmir, it appears the losses suffered there were deemed acceptable by Alleria, otherwise... well, she would not have sent so many troops to a suicide mission.

And yes, the Ren'dorei are a young race, that is the point in case you had not noticed. They are meant to be a new race of elves that was mutated by the Void. For the first time in the history of WoW, we can play as a new race that has not been established for centuries. Also, they are not a dying race at all, since their numbers are bolstered by both Blood elf and High elf scholars, and they might find a way to replicate the transformation process too.

Finally, I hope you realize that the High elves were also a young and relatively small race in the past. Since, you know, they were a bunch of exiled mages on some ships fleeing Kalimdor.

I got very strong hope, that this young race will die faster in "childhood" period. And yep, how many sholars, for which you approved, on Thelogrus? 10? 20? Yes, a few sholars from High and Blood Elves "really big" number. Extremely "big" support.

[Varodoc]

I got very strong hope, that this young race will die faster in "childhood" period. And yep, how many sholars, for which you approved, on Thelogrus? 10? 20? Yes, a few sholars from High and Blood Elves "really big" number. Extremely "big" support.

That is equal or even more support than the following races have:

- Trolls, since we are counting in-game units, the Darkspear trolls could share 3 boats with the orcs in WC3, could barely control a small island, and have suffered many losses in the many conflicts since Classic;
- Gnomes, they have lost their only city and the bulk of their population, and were relegated to a small district of Ironforge. Even after a decade, they could only set up a small camp in front of their ruined city;
- Goblin, the refugees from a ruined island, who could fit into a single ship, and were further hunted down by naga and the Alliance and had to flee another volcano eruption (without of course counting their own leader enslaving them);
- Pandaren, literally 10 people who set up a tent in the faction capital;
- Lightforged draenei, an elite group of draenei soldiers who were almost annihilated by the Legion, had it not been for the Vindicaar intervention;
- Vulpera, a bunch of desert scavengers who live in a camp in the middle of the desert and were hunted down by the Sethrak Empire;
- Nightborne, the inhabitants of a single city, who went through a crisis in which many were driven out of the city and succumbed to madness, others were slain by the government, many others died defending said corrupted government, many died trying to overthrow said government, and many were just slain in the massive siege of the city.

So Yes, given how many races must have very low numbers, the Void elves are nothing too unusual here.

[Tinniel]

Most of the current Warcraft community doesn't care deeply about lore, deeply spit on logic and plot. Give them a beautiful visual, more EPIC items and drops, dungeons and bosses where you can overwrite buttons and tactics for ten hours in a row. They do not care about your lore and do not care about the roleplayers for whom there are some traitors, I will name them directly, drown. They do not care about your role-playing game and how you imagine yourself - a transparent elf with blue hair and eyes. They don't really know what kind of high elves it will turn out to be.
Desperate people like me have asked and are asking for a separate race. When it is introduced, then there will be reconciliation and the possibility of a normal dialogue. But until this moment, no compromises, and we need the most tough, and even better aggressive crush on Blizzard. If their greedy stupid heads do not reach the simple requests of the players, and when the requests are already 15 years old. Already and even more.
And with the traitors who have flooded this thread, there can be no conversation at all. You are Judas. You betrayed the idea, you caved in and now idolize Blizzard, because you were given a rotten stew but in a beautiful package and with a sweet aroma. Because of you, we lost the High Elves too. And now we get THIS MISCENSE, which you now praise.
And then you all, like an antis, you all will tell that the high elves have died out all together, Vereesa and the Silver Covenant have sunk into oblivion, and all the high elves are your damned ren'dorei (better they burn in helll). Well, well, Judas.

[Kaleion]

How is this thread still a thread. Mods should really just delete this thread.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

They could easily go with more fel and light customizations for blood elves.

IMO there's an spectrum of sorts, or a Venn diagram, with Void Elves and Blood Elf overlapping in the middle with the "High Elf" look, cause at a point, that was the normal aesthetic.

Fel, Void and Light influenced changes exist within either group based on the choices they made, and set them further apart.

[Tinniel]

How is this thread still a thread. Mods should really just delete this thread.

This tread will still alive until Blizzard finally will create Quel'Dorei as a separate own race. Or untill the compromise and plaintive snot of the traitors, who SUDDENLY fell in love with Ren'dorei for the new wrapper, flood it and drown all the "defenders" in their own pictures of "luk at my niew elfie transoge", tales and complaints what "stupid high elf fans are".

[FlubberPuddy]

How would a blood elf with blue eyes feel like a "true high elf" for someone that sees High elves as linked to their history to the alliance?

It's because the people who say this are as shallow as it gets. To them, "blue eye thalassian" = high elf and that's it. Completely ignoring the context of everything like the Silver Covenant and Alliance High Elves.

But when people are obviously being that shallow on purpose there's not really a point to engage. It's just an attempt to bring back the cyclical arguments that mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.

For instance, there was such a big gung ho about 'Blizzard will never give fair skin and blue eyes to Alliance because that would destroy the faction integrity of Blood Elves/Horde!!"

Well look what Blizzard did, they gave both sides the ability to be a fair skinned thalassian with blue eyes. Blizzard obviously didn't give a fuck about 'muh faction integrity' (which was most likely a facade at best and at worst immature).

But I also always wonder, why are some horde players so bent on reclaiming "high elf" when in universe blood elves willingly redefined themselves?

It's just weird at this point.

It is weird, and I think it stems from pettiness about not being able to let the issue go since some of those people spent literal years arguing against the addition of high elves to Alliance.

Most of these players don't care about the actual story progression of Blood Elves (remember their history but forge ahead anew - a concept that keeps coming up over and over for Blood Elves) it was more about locking out customizations from the players who wanted them.

No Blood Elf would want to be called a 'High Elf' it would spit in the face of what happened to their people and what their beloved leader, Kael'thas, claimed the moment they shifted their name (and identity).

[Xilurm]

I'm almost tempted to change my Void Elf's skin and eye colours and change her from Shadow to Holy and pretend she's a High Elf. Will kinda ruin my immersion for a bit though.

[Rhlor]

It's because the people who say this are as shallow as it gets. To them, "blue eye thalassian" = high elf and that's it. Completely ignoring the context of everything like the Silver Covenant and Alliance High Elves.

But when people are obviously being that shallow on purpose there's not really a point to engage. It's just an attempt to bring back the cyclical arguments that mean nothing in the grand scheme of things.

For instance, there was such a big gung ho about 'Blizzard will never give fair skin and blue eyes to Alliance because that would destroy the faction integrity of Blood Elves/Horde!!"

Well look what Blizzard did, they gave both sides the ability to be a fair skinned thalassian with blue eyes. Blizzard obviously didn't give a fuck about 'muh faction integrity' (which was most likely a facade at best and at worst immature).


It is weird, and I think it stems from pettiness about not being able to let the issue go since some of those people spent literal years arguing against the addition of high elves to Alliance.

Most of these players don't care about the actual story progression of Blood Elves (remember their history but forge ahead anew - a concept that keeps coming up over and over for Blood Elves) it was more about locking out customizations from the players who wanted them.

No Blood Elf would want to be called a 'High Elf' it would spit in the face of what happened to their people and what their beloved leader, Kael'thas, claimed the moment they shifted their name (and identity).

it's just a name if someone wants to use it I don't see what the problem is.

[FlubberPuddy]

it's just a name if someone wants to use it I don't see what the problem is.

I'm not talking about someone that wants to RP their character a certain way, even if it goes against established lore, that's the point of RP - it's yours.

The issue comes from people trying to use their headcanon RP as if it's established lore, even Blizzard does not support that.

Blizzard supports allowing you to RP your character however you wish. Blizzard does not support your RP as if it is their established lore.

There's a big difference between those two things.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

it's just a name if someone wants to use it I don't see what the problem is.

The problem is not what people want to personally RP within their own narratives, the problem is when people take that permission to argue that the lore itself should reflect their preference.

The lore is a guideline for RP, but RP does not affect the lore.

Your blue eyed elf on the horde can perfectly call themselves a High Elf, they could very well in their own narrative push of a restoration movement, and that totally cool, but that does not change the facts, the lore, as it is, which is no Group of thalassians in the horde refer to themselves as High Elves, they are a very strongly unified political entity under Lor'themar as Blood Elves.

The alliance, on the other hand, does have several groups that refer to themselves as High Elves. The point is not whether they should or not, or if Blood Elves should go back to High Elves; it's merely pointing out the facts of the situation.

To say that the Horde has blood elves and the alliance has High Elves should not be considered an antagonistic comment, but a simply a statement of, if generalized, facts. It simply makes reference to the ideological and political divide that sees one group on the horde, and the other predominantly on the alliance.